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 Betreff des Beitrags: Werner-Wicker Klinik
BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 16:41 
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Registriert: Mo, 22.06.2009 - 13:46
Beiträge: 12
Wohnort: Gutersloh NRW
Hi my daughter has been referred to the Werner-Wicker Klinik in Bad Wildungen. Has anyone been there themselves or know anything about it. I have found their website (the english version for which is currently being created) and tried to work out what it says. But just thought I would ask if anyone knows anything about it???

Wielen Danke

Frances


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BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 16:54 
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Registriert: So, 17.02.2008 - 13:21
Beiträge: 6134
Geschlecht: weiblich
Diagnose: Skoliose
Therapie: 3x Reha (2005, 2007, 2009),
Cheneau-Korsett 12/2006-01/2008,
Rahmouni-Korsett 02/2008-10/2015
Hi France,
nice to hear from you again.
To your question, I wouldn´t go to the wwk, neither for conservative treatment nor for surgery. What´s the angular of your daughters scoliosis?

A little while ago you did ask for a brace maker, have you not consider to go to Rahmouni or Nahr? I would only recommend this two bracemakers, maybe also Püttmann in Essen, but not anyone else.

Best wishes
Minimine

_________________
LG
Minimine

Lerne von gestern, lebe und wirke im heute und hoffe für die Zukunft.
Albert Einstein


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BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 17:51 
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Registriert: Mo, 22.06.2009 - 13:46
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Hi

My daughter has been seen to-date by an orthopaedic doctor in Bielefeld, as this was the one which had a contract with British Forces Germany you see. And last week after x-rays he said her current brace is not achieving any correction (which is what I already knew - and would of bet millions of euros on - from doing my own research into how chenau braces are meant to apply 3 points of pressure - plus my complete lack of faith in her orthotist). So anyway, I discovered today that the W.W.K is his recommendation to the budget holders for British Forces Germany. Unfortunately, it is all out of my control as to where he recommends to them that she is sent. I think they will just go with his recommendation or say she will have to go back to London for her treatment. I would like to think that treatment in Germany would be better than the british national health service.

Clearly I would prefer to send her to the best Rahmouni or Nahr but unlike German nationals, we do not have private health insurance over here to cover the costs.

Why do you say not to go to the WWK?

kind regards

frances


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BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 17:53 
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Registriert: Mo, 22.06.2009 - 13:46
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Wohnort: Gutersloh NRW
Hi

I forgot to say, she has a 36 degree cob angle T7 I think and she is 13.


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BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 18:21 
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Registriert: So, 17.02.2008 - 13:21
Beiträge: 6134
Geschlecht: weiblich
Diagnose: Skoliose
Therapie: 3x Reha (2005, 2007, 2009),
Cheneau-Korsett 12/2006-01/2008,
Rahmouni-Korsett 02/2008-10/2015
Hi France,
all we knew here, the wwk often recommends surgery, even in scoliosis-cases where surgery is not absolutely necessary.
I also knew someone who was there and fleed from this clinic because of the opinion of the doctors there. Also the braces aren´t the best.

I don´t know if I understood this right. You have to go to a doctor or clinic which have a contract with the British Forces Germany? Concerns this only the doctor or also the orthotist? Perhaps you only need a doctor which have such a contract and if this doctor gives you a prescription you can go to all orthotists?!

Perhaps you can ask Nahr or Rahmouni per telephone (but I think Rahmouni is currently in holidays) if they knew such a doctor?

Sorry for my mistakes but my english isn´t very good :/

Best wishes
Minimine

_________________
LG
Minimine

Lerne von gestern, lebe und wirke im heute und hoffe für die Zukunft.
Albert Einstein


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BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 19:50 
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Registriert: Mo, 22.06.2009 - 13:46
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Hi

Its a bit of a battle because all I keep being told is that the british forces will only go where the current orthopaedic Dr recommends. First of all he sent us to a local orthotist, which he would not usually recommend, but sent us here because he thought the british forces had a contract with them (they do not!). When I later asked him if he would send his own children there he said no! He said he would send them to another one in Bielefeld. But when we returned to him last week and he x-rayed her thats when he said he would now recommend either Munster Univerisity or WWK. I do not know if he would recommend Rahmouni or Nehr, I will ask though.


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BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 20:08 
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Registriert: So, 17.02.2008 - 13:21
Beiträge: 6134
Geschlecht: weiblich
Diagnose: Skoliose
Therapie: 3x Reha (2005, 2007, 2009),
Cheneau-Korsett 12/2006-01/2008,
Rahmouni-Korsett 02/2008-10/2015
Hi,
can you not say to the doctor that you want to go to Rahmouni or Nahr? You could say to him that someone has recommend this two or so. Perhaps you can speak with him and he agrees. Or the two also knows doctors with such an contract.

I wouldn´t go to Münster or to the wwk.

Best wishes
Minimine

_________________
LG
Minimine

Lerne von gestern, lebe und wirke im heute und hoffe für die Zukunft.
Albert Einstein


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BeitragVerfasst: Mo, 03.08.2009 - 20:33 
Profi
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Registriert: So, 09.06.2002 - 23:00
Beiträge: 1355
Wohnort: Nähe Stuttgart
Alter: 65
Geschlecht: weiblich
Diagnose: idiopathische Adoleszenzskoliose
lumbal 64°, thorakal 56°
Therapie: Seit 2003 Schroth-KG, 3 Rehas in Bad Salzungen.
Hi Frances,
as far as I know both of these hospitals are more or less surgery-oriented.
Don't expect them to provide first-class brace treatment.
There are other places to go for this.

Don't expect your local orthopaedic doctor to be a specialist in scoliosis treatment or to know about good braces or good orthotists.
Probably he learnt that these hospitals are known for having patients with scoliosis (and this is more than you can say about the average doctor...)
He doesn't gain anything by recommending you to one place or the other, does he?

So you need to gather information yourself and feed it to him discreetely :)
Perhaps you could show him Rahmounis brochure - I don't know what Nahr offers regarding written informations. Or printouts of their websites?
Put the emphasis on brace treatment and tell him you are anxious to avoid an operation.

Good luck,
Lady S


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BeitragVerfasst: Di, 04.08.2009 - 07:52 
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Registriert: Mo, 22.06.2009 - 13:46
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Thank you, this info is priceless!

Wielen Danke

Frances


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BeitragVerfasst: Mi, 05.08.2009 - 14:33 
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Registriert: Mo, 22.06.2009 - 13:46
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So has anyone ever heard of anyone going to the WWK for conservative korsett/physio treatment at all? The British Forces Drs etc who I have spoken to have only heard of one spinal surgery case being sent there too, so now I am really concerned/worried. I was led to believe all along that my daughter's treatment would be with a brace as she has one curve with a cob angle is 36 degrees. If WWK is predominently surgery, why on earth are they sending her there in the first place???

I have emailed WWK to ask them a couple of questions and I have sent off for a Rahmouni brochure too. Im just about to try and find if Nahr have any brochures etc. I want as much info as possible inorder to present my daughters case effectively before we waste even more time going to the wrong place!
:juggle:


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BeitragVerfasst: Mi, 05.08.2009 - 18:17 
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Registriert: Mo, 20.05.2002 - 14:06
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France hat geschrieben:
If WWK is predominently surgery, why on earth are they sending her there in the first place???

Well, that wouldn't be so unusual. In Germany many patients are send there too. The WWK has over several decades been the leading clinic for scoliosis surgery in Germany, which is why people still assume they must be specialised and successful in any kind of scoliosis treatment.

I guess you will have to explain to your "British Forces Insurance" that a successful brace treatment is far more likely with one of the two mentioned brace makers than with the WWK.

Maybe explain that there have been staff changes over the years and the quality of treatment is highly dependent on the employees and is not guaranteed by the reputation of the clinic, which was acquired many years ago for their surgical successes and not for their conservative treatment.

A later surgery in consequence of insufficient brace quality will cause unnecessarily high costs, while braces from the other providers now do cost the same.


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BeitragVerfasst: Do, 06.08.2009 - 09:25 
Good points - thanks. They have already wasted the money on the first (current) brace which is not achieving any correction at all. I have not idea how much that one cost. Plus, more importantly, time from first diagnosis to actually obtaining a brace which works. How long is a reasonable length of time? Her first Dr appointment was 17 Feb, then her first paediatric orthopaedic appointment was 10 March. It is now August and still no brace fit for the purpose and her appointment at WWK is not until 25th Sept! Is this a usual time-frame?


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BeitragVerfasst: Do, 06.08.2009 - 10:48 
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Registriert: Sa, 05.04.2008 - 01:42
Beiträge: 296
Wohnort: Kreis Bad Kreuznach
Alter: 52
Geschlecht: weiblich
Diagnose: Tochter "Koko"*2/96 hat Skoliose, ursprünglich 25°und 26°
Therapie: Korsett seit 6/08 Rahmouni, seit 8/11 Sanomed, seit 2/13 abgeschult mit 22°, 20° und 10° im Sept. 2013
Hello France!

Just to give you an impression of how short a time frame can be:

March 08: My daughter had pneumonia which required an x-ray of the lungs. The scoliosis was visible on the film. None of the doctors involved so far even mentioned a scoliosis treatment whatsoever. Since my sister has scoliosis (she has been fused about 30 years ago) I knew i had to do something.

May 08: She had her first appointment with Dr. Hoffmann (found through this forum), x-rays of the spine were taken, 25° and 26° measured.
On the same day she had her cast made at Rahmouni's.

June 08: 14 days after casting we picked up her first brace.

_________________
Gruß,
Hanti
:snoopy:
Kokos Geschichte:
:arrow: Quetschalarm,
:arrow: Bilder vom Gipsen und Korsettaussuchen,
:arrow: Die erste Reha in Sobi


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BeitragVerfasst: Do, 06.08.2009 - 11:42 
Profi
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Registriert: So, 09.06.2002 - 23:00
Beiträge: 1355
Wohnort: Nähe Stuttgart
Alter: 65
Geschlecht: weiblich
Diagnose: idiopathische Adoleszenzskoliose
lumbal 64°, thorakal 56°
Therapie: Seit 2003 Schroth-KG, 3 Rehas in Bad Salzungen.
Hi Francis,
for which purpose have you been referred to the clinic at all by your doctor,
if all you need is a brace that works and a prescription for it??

What does he want them to do?
In any case you shouldn't give it time - during puberty a scoliosis can worsen
rapidly in some cases!

Lady S


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BeitragVerfasst: Do, 06.08.2009 - 14:55 
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Registriert: Mo, 20.05.2002 - 14:06
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Anonymous hat geschrieben:
How long is a reasonable length of time? Her first Dr appointment was 17 Feb, then her first paediatric orthopaedic appointment was 10 March. It is now August and still no brace fit for the purpose and her appointment at WWK is not until 25th Sept! Is this a usual time-frame?

That would be 8 months! Here is what could have happened in this time: http://www.rahmouni.de/skoliose/progredienz.htm


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BeitragVerfasst: Sa, 08.08.2009 - 13:31 
France, these are all very private opinions without any reference for proving it's evidence. The WWK is continuously recommend in other more transparent sources of information around scoliosis like: http://www.bundesverband-skoliose.de/links.htm
I'm left wondering under what circumstances the pictures from the above link have been taken in the environment of company Rahmouni.


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BeitragVerfasst: Sa, 08.08.2009 - 17:50 
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Registriert: Mo, 20.05.2002 - 14:06
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Yes, this - WWK-...'s opinion - is a good example of what I meant a few postings earlier: people just assume that a recommendation or good reputation must be valid for other areas as well - and for all eternity! ;)

The link on the website is furthermore listed under clinics and not under orthotists. But the best way to find out how it is actually meant is to ask the author (they don't recommend the WWK for bracing either).

My own curve, BTW, worsened within 9 months from 32 degrees to 58 degrees at the age of 12 to 13 years. A progression that rapidly like shown on the website of Rahmouni is not so unusual. I therefor doubt that these pictures are a fake.


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BeitragVerfasst: So, 09.08.2009 - 11:04 
Well, please look again at those pictures from the Rahmouni side: These are unsuccessful braces treatments, but the way you explained them to Frances was as if those patient weren't treated at all. The big advantage of WWK is that they know when to give up with conservative approaches and recommend the surgery. My impression from reading here is that Rahmouni often seems to ignore those limitations, because of this own business goals or whatever reasons.


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BeitragVerfasst: So, 09.08.2009 - 14:58 
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Registriert: Mo, 20.05.2002 - 14:06
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WWK-still-best-of-breed hat geschrieben:
Well, please look again at those pictures from the Rahmouni side: These are unsuccessful braces treatments but the way you explained them to Frances was as if those patient weren't treated at all.

I didn't say that at all! I stated that this is a progression which could have happened within 8 months.

If it is an unsuccessful brace treatment we cannot know, since it depends on if she did wear her brace or if she ever got one. No one can claim to be under medication, when he just picks up his medicine but never takes it, either.

Zitat:
The big advantage of WWK is that they know when to give up with conservative approaches and recommend the surgery. My impression from reading here is that Rahmouni often seems to ignore those limitations, because of this own business goals or whatever reasons.

You are confusing a clinic with an orthotist here. The orthotist of the WWK doesn't recommend these things either, doctors do that. The work of an orthotist is merely to produce the brace.

If someone with very high degrees, say 60, 70, 80 or 90 degrees comes with a prescription for a brace, it is the patient's and the doctor's decision.


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BeitragVerfasst: So, 09.08.2009 - 19:38 
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Registriert: Di, 18.02.2003 - 09:40
Beiträge: 513
Alter: 38
Hello,

The problem with the WWK appears to me as follows:

WWK and operation

The WWK used to have an excellent reputation with regard to operative treatment. In the last decade other centres and their leading surgeons improved their surgical instuments and developed instruments that were more robust. (e.g. double rod systems of Halm)
During this time the WWK lost its leading position in some aspects, for example they were not using the new instrumentations that guarante primary stability. Anecdotal reports of broken rods were common and some treatments centres (e.g. Sobernheim and Salzungen) did not recommend the WWK as a first choice for standard scoliosis surgery any more.
Nevertheless the WWK always belonged to the better operation centres, and they may have a lot of experiences with difficult cases.

Now the WWK has a new medical chief and I do not know in which direction they are heading.

WWK and conservative treatment

What I get from the experience of forum users the braces produced by the orthotists assiciated with the WWK are often are of lousy quality and do not offersufficient correction.
This is not a private opinion but can be emprically verified by measuring the residual cobb degree in the brace using x-rays and comparing it wirh the minimal correction needed to stop a scoliosis (the minimal correction was established by Landauer and is about 40 to 50 %).

Of course we do no not know if the sample of WWK patients that write here is representative, but it is a fact that bad correction of WWK braces have been reported , wich I think is a reason not to recommend the WWK for conservative treatment.

Having insuffieicient experiences with high quality braces it also follows that the doctors in the WWK may not be in the position to decide when good conservative treatment will fail, as their conservative treatment has a low standard.


David


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